How Human-Centered Design Is Changing Humanitarian Aid | Jocelyn Wyatt, Alight

When a person is forced to flee everything they know, humanitarian systems are often built to provide a short-term safety net - food, shelter, the basics needed to survive the immediate crisis. But survival isn't the same as thriving, and too many displaced people are left without a clear path toward what comes after the emergency: rebuilding a livelihood, regaining agency, and creating a life of their own choosing.

In Episode 8, Dorothy Stuehmke speaks with Jocelyn Wyatt, CEO of Alight, about what it truly takes to move beyond short-term relief toward long-term dignity, and why co-creating solutions with communities, rather than delivering aid to them, is part of what makes that shift possible.

Jocelyn shares her own path from Acumen Fellow in Kenya to co-founding IDEO.org, where she spent a decade bringing human-centered design into social impact, and how that philosophy now shapes her leadership at Alight, an organization serving more than 3.5 million displaced people across more than 20 countries.

Together, Dorothy and Jocelyn explore:

• What it takes to help people build toward long-term stability and self-determined futures
• How Alight has grown into a global organization built around "unleashing abundance" 
• What Jocelyn's career has taught her about co-creating solutions with the communities Alight serves, not just for them
• How the global aid sector is being forced to rebuild itself in the wake of USAID's dismantling,  and what that means for the future of humanitarian work

This episode connects to the Do Good on Purpose Giving Circle, where you can directly support Alight and its mission to help displaced people build dignified, self-determined futures.

🤝 Support Alight through the Do Good on Purpose Giving Circle: https://www.grapevine.org/giving-circle/LjPhN5M/Do-Good-on-Purpose-Giving-Circle

🔗 Connect with Dorothy Stuehmke:
 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorothystuehmke/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dorothystuehmke/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dorothystuehmke

💎 Wearing Anne Woodman Jewelry - pieces grounded in craftsmanship and intention. 10% of sales support the Do Good on Purpose Giving Circle: https://annewoodman.com/?utm_source=DoGood&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=givingcircle

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi everyone, welcome to the Do Good On Purpose podcast, where you can listen to leaders discussing solutions to the most pressing challenges in our world and where you can also support them by donating through the show's giving circle. And I'm providing the link in the show notes. This is a way for you to take action and support a solution that has a proven model that's working to solve the things that we're hearing about in the news and that are really distracting us and making us feel upset and frustrated. So I invite you to join. Sometimes the most important work in the world is not just about delivering humanitarian aid. It's also about partnering with the people you serve to create programs that really work because you've gotten their insight and their perspectives. More than a hundred million people around the world have been displaced from their homes. That's a staggering number. They've been displaced by conflict, by climate, by crises. They never chose. And the question is, how do we both help them in their immediate need and get them set up to create a livelihood for themselves? But that question has only become more urgent over the past year as the dismantling of USAID and steep cuts across the humanitarian sector have left the sector stretched thinner while the need just keeps growing. My guest today is Jocelyn Wyatt, CEO of Alight, a global humanitarian organization working in more than 20 countries to create dignified spaces and human-worthy services for more than 3.5 million displaced people every year. Jocelyn's path to this work is distinctive. From her early years as an acumen global fellow in Kenya to co-founding and leading ideo.org for a decade where she brought human-centered design into the world of social impact before bringing that same philosophy to a light. What stands out the most about Jocelyn is her belief that the people humanitarian organizations serve are not simply recipients of aid, but co-creators of their own futures, and that even amid crisis, people deserve not just survival, but the chance to thrive. On today's episode of the Do Good on Purpose podcast, we explore what it truly means to serve displaced communities with dignity, why design and empathy belong at the center of humanitarian work, and how we can unleash abundance rather than dependency. Jocelyn Wyatt joins us now. Hi, Jocelyn. Thanks so much for being on the Do Good on Purpose podcast. I'm so excited to have you here with me today. Thanks so much, Dorothy. It's great to be here. You know, your background is so interesting and so relevant in this moment, particularly for me, just because I do have a humanitarian affairs background. But I think also your background in design and human-centered design, I think is such a unique piece of what you bring to the work that you do today, especially with the light. So I'm really excited to explore that a little bit and kind of pick your brain and understand how you approach the work that you do in humanitarian affairs, I think, especially through a human-centered design lens. And we're going to get into that and you're going to explain how you come up with the wonderful programs that you're you're implementing in over 20 countries now with a light. Yeah. So why don't we start with an understanding really of humanitarian affairs today? I think there are more than a hundred million people worldwide who are currently displaced. That means they're forced from their homes because of conflict, because of climate change, because of crises. And so I would love for you to give our listeners an understanding of what is the reality of that experience? What is the human experience behind the numbers? Because that's a huge number, 100 million people displaced.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah, absolutely. And we are seeing more displaced people today than ever before. I think UNHCR's numbers may even be closer to 120 million now, forcibly displaced. And those are people that have crossed borders. So they've gone from one country to another country, often a neighboring country. But that doesn't even account for the, you know, additional tens of millions of people that have had to be displaced within their own countries due to conflict or due to natural disasters or climate. And so, yeah, the numbers are staggering. And what that means for many people is that they actually are in this limbo of displacement for decades or even generations. And many refugee camps in Africa, for instance, where we work, we'll see, you know, three, four generations of people who are living in these refugee camps who have been in them for, you know, 30, 40 years without sort of knowing where their next move is or how they might get out. And so, you know, refugee camps were really, you know, came came to be as a temporary place of refuge, as a place to sort of seek safety on your move on to the next step. But what's happened is that people have really gotten stuck in them. And so what we see in our work is is people that have been in this limbo of displacement for much longer than was ever intended, because there isn't necessarily a place for a safe place for them to get return to or um a welcoming place for them to go to.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah. I've I've not actually seen a refugee camp um in person, but and I'm sure you have. What what is that, what is it like when you when you go and you see this?

SPEAKER_01 5:31

They really vary um pretty widely, depending on, you know, some we've seen that, you know, have just sprung up um you know, within the last few days or weeks or months. And often that's where we see the the tents, the plastic tents, and uh, you know, we see, you know, there's there's order uh because of the the sort of systems and the humanitarians that are really in place from the beginning. So they set them up in a in an organized way, but at the same time, those shelters are at the beginning generally temporary. Then over time, people are able to get the materials that they need or they're able to, you know, save up or find them and build sort of more permanent structures or homes within the context of these camps or settlements. And so, you know, we can see, you know, 30,000, 40,000 people in these settlements where, you know, their their homes are arranged in sort of different neighborhoods or communities where there's some sort of roads and pathways through them, where there's often shared stands to get drinking water and water for for cooking and cleaning and bathing, where there's generally shared latrines. Um, and then, you know, over time there will be schools and health clinics and you know, job centers that start to get built. So they really end up looking like sort of small cities or communities where people's needs can be sort of, you know, technically, I guess, fully met within the confines of that settlement or camp.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

I had not really actually thought about it in terms of sort of the long-term evolution and kind of thinking about it as like a community, right? Yeah. That's a pretty interesting perspective. I want to talk a little bit about the dismantling of USAID because that's very related to the work that you're doing and sort of I think that the challenge that the humanitarian affairs sector is really facing right now. Everybody knows USAID was dismantled. That means that about $19 billion in contracts were terminated, over 80% of global programs canceled, and about 94% of staff laid off. That has left a huge hole in a huge gap in the humanitarian aid sector. So I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about what that actually means for your work and the sector. How are you looking to fill that gap? Because it's it's huge.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yeah. So USAID was the largest funder of humanitarian relief efforts in the world. They, yeah, it certainly left a really big gap. You know, the there is now funding that has gone to the State Department to support humanitarian affairs, and the majority of that funding is now going through UN mechanisms and then sort of going to implementing organizations, organizations like Alight. But that said, it's far less than what it was before in a time when there is far more conflict and displacement than ever before. And so what that means is that resources are just stretched really, really thin. There are certainly, you know, health clinics and hospitals and nutrition centers and you know, jobs or livelihood programs or schools that are no longer operating that once were. And in those communities, there's generally no alternative. So there are, you know, millions of people around the world that no longer have access to the services that they had previously. And then where those services remain, they are certainly now short-staffed or the where the operators' hours of operation have been cut, or you know, they're just unable to do sort of as much as they were before. So, I mean, we've seen real implications for a light's work in terms of having to close operations in South Sudan and Southeast Asia, really consolidate our operations in Uganda. And these are these are not places that have any less need than they had before. And so, you know, it's been a real challenge for all of our organizations navigating the cuts, but primarily because we feel such a deep commitment to our customers and um really don't want to sort of walk away and close the doors on the services that we know that they rely on so heavily.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And just a reminder to the listeners that um the innovation here of this podcast is that it's also a giving circle. So there's an opportunity to come in and support the work that Jocelyn talks about and you know, more details on that in the show notes and uh towards the end of the podcast as well. So stay tuned. Jocelyn, I want to shift a little bit now and I want to talk about you and your journey because you have such an interesting background. I mean, you worked for an organization that contracted for USAID, so you have experience there. You were an Acumen Fund fellow, and then you co-founded ideo.org. So, and now you're leading alike, this major humanitarian organization. So I think your your background is so interesting because it's social impact on the one hand, and then you've got this design thinking woven throughout, right? So just wondering if you could talk a bit about how that has informed your approach to humanitarian work.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, absolutely. So as you mentioned, I started off my career in Washington. I worked for a contractor for USAID. Um, and it was really interesting work. I wanted to have the opportunity to understand poverty and economic development around the world. And I certainly did have those opportunities in the five years that I worked there. But one of the challenges that I saw was that the approach felt very top-down, Washington driven. We were, you know, I was in my early 20s at the time writing proposals for programs for, you know, Bolivian foresters or Jordanian business owners, having real, really no context or understanding of what it was that they wanted or needed. And when I had the opportunity to visit some of the programs that had been running for, you know, five, 10 years, you know, multi-million dollar programs, they weren't necessarily informed by the people that they would benefit or that they were meant to benefit. And so it felt to me, um, this was in the early 2000s, that we needed a really a different approach to doing this type of work, that we needed to really believe more in the local leaders and listen to their perspectives about what was necessary. We needed to talk with people who would ultimately be benefiting from or participating in the programs and have them really inform the design and the direction of that work. And so I ended up going to business school and was really interested in social enterprise and spent some time in India with Vision Spring and then in Kenya with Acumen, working with social enterprises to sort of understand what a business approach to poverty alleviation looked like, which I found really fascinating. And that really led me into idea and human-centered design. And so this notion that, you know, we could apply these principles again that came from the private sector around listening to people, understanding their needs, um, coming up with lots of different solutions, prototyping them, testing them, getting feedback was really compelling to me. It felt like a better way to do the type of development work that I had seen. And so that led me to spend about um nearly 15 years between IDO and then starting IDO. Um, to really be able to spread this methodology of human-centered design. And then through that time, one of our long-term clients or partners was Alight, um, which was formerly American Refugee Committee. And so I had the opportunity to spend about a dozen years working with Alight on the IDO.org side and really got to know this organization. And to me, you know, having the experience working with many, many, many different organizations over that uh time at ideo.org, the thing that really stood out to me about a light was the values and the true uh centering on the customer, really saying again and again, what is it that our customers want and need, and really thinking about the customers as the displaced people, that the funders, of course, were critical partners in this work, but that we needed to be designing for the communities that we were working with first and foremost, not first and foremost designing for those donors.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, I love that. Thanks for sharing that and thanks for for doing this because I think it's so important in the work that we do that we look at the people who we're serving as as true partners on the journey, right? Absolutely. Yeah, so I think that's I think that's so cool your what you've what you've done and how you've brought that to a light now as well. So can you talk a little bit about uh the relationship between innovation and empathy? Because I think what you've done is so innovative with uh the methodology that you created around human-centered design and really bringing that to market. But there's also I think empathy that's needed as a leader in especially in humanitarian affairs, because we're dealing with uh crises at at such a large scale and so many people impacted. So wondering if you could talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah. So I think um, you know, I think innovation really should start with empathy. The empathy is sort of the first part of the process, which is about being, for me, it's about being curious, it's about asking questions, it's about trying to understand different perspectives or people's lived experiences. And that's really then the basis for how innovation can come about. So innovation then is sort of the process that that goes from that sort of initial point of empathy to then saying, okay, how do we come up with new solutions to these really intractable problems? And that process should be one, I believe, of co-creation, which is where together multiple people who bring different perspectives are the ones that are sort of looking at the challenge and coming up with different possible solutions and then testing them out together to really see what works. And so that ultimately gets to get new solutions or innovations that are really grounded in people's lived experiences and in their real needs.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Thank you. So let's talk about how you're bringing all of that to a light. Talk to me a little bit about a light's model, its mission, its goals.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yeah, so Light is a nearly 50-year-old INGO. We have always been focused on serving forcibly displaced people, both refugees as well as internally displaced people. We do that around the world today. Our work in Sudan is our is our largest operation. Um, but we're also working with Ukrainians in Ukraine and Poland and with many new arrivals from all over the world in the US, particularly in Minnesota. We're working uh in Pakistan on education and with Afghans and displaced Pakistanis. So, you know, we operate um globally and we do a variety of things. But uh first and foremost, we really deliver services to those that have experienced displacement. That could include running health clinics or nutrition centers, water points, providing homes for people. But equally as important as the sort of life-saving work that we do is the work to really help people move beyond displacement. So giving people opportunities for education to build community, to find jobs and get employment to provide for themselves and their families. We really work across that spectrum of displacement on that journey from sort of a media emergency response displacement through, you know, people getting really settled and feeling like they have a home and would no longer describe themselves in that in that moment of displacement.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

And so what makes you your organization distinct and a little different from other humanitarian organizations out there? Is it the human-centered design approach that you're embedding into your program design?

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah, I think that's absolutely part of it. I think our our strategy is really about insights, having really deep insights about journeys of displacement, understanding the customers, understanding what makes them make the decisions to move, to stay, um, how they think about those journeys, what they need along the way. The second piece is really around co-creation and co-creating with communities to ensure that the solutions are really grounded in the ones that they want and need. And then in a real commitment to high-quality implementation and delivery. So ensuring that we are running really effective health clinics or nutrition centers or whatever it is that we're doing. So I do think it's that real, I think it's that real emphasis on innovation. We have developed a number of social enterprises as part of our work at Alight. We're really always trying to find sort of new models to do humanitarian aid. And so we we do that through human-centered design processes, but really with mainly a focus on sort of centering the customer as the as the primary one that we're designing with.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Can you give me an example of one of the social enterprises that you started? I think that's so interesting. And then also an example of a program where you've really worked in partnership with a community and applied that human-centered design principle to designing a program. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yeah. So one really simple social enterprise that we've been running for several years now is in Uganda. It's called Safe Rides. And there, one of the things that we recognized was that, you know, people generally don't have the uh ability to buy vehicles for themselves. They ride oftentimes on the back of motorcycles and what's called boda bodas. And this is sort of the common way to get around in Uganda overall. But there were just fewer boda bodas within the context of the refugee camp where we were working in Nakia Valley in Uganda. And, you know, when there were, they were people from outside of the camp. So it wasn't necessarily benefiting the local refugees or communities. And the reason for that was it was generally because the refugees didn't have the ability to borrow money to buy a boda boda and it was too expensive, and it would take just years and years for them to save up for it. So we developed a social enterprise called Safe Rides, which was which is really focused on identifying entrepreneurs, both men and women, training them in how to both in sort of how to build a business as a Boda Boda driver, but also how to actually, you know, safely drive a Boda Boda with passengers, and then have given them loans to be able to purchase these Boda Bodas. We're now moving to e-bikes for these, so they're also climate-friendly bikes. But this has been, you know, just a really simple model to be able to recycle that capital to provide those loans and then get repayment and then be able to put those loans out to more entrepreneurs who want to start businesses as Boda Boda drivers. And so they could be delivering goods or they could be taking people around the community or into town. So that's sort of one pretty simple example of a social enterprise that we've created that's able to, you know, really be self-sustaining. So now we're raising additional capital to be able to expand that program. But again, that that expansion will be able to sort of continue to benefit more and more people over time. And then, you know, an example. So we have a current program. Um we've been running a coding school in Rwanda for refugee youth. Often in in Rwanda, we see uh refugees from from Congo, from Burundi, from Sudan. And we've been running a coding school for the last several years. The coding school has been met with really good success. The graduates have participated in the program for about a year and uh we run the training for them. They have been able to secure internships and jobs, move out of the camps. You know, coding is uh the the need or the training for coding is obviously different today than it was even a year ago with um new AI tools. And so uh then at the same time we got some support to actually develop a physical to build a physical building for for the sort of evolution of this uh digital and and training school for refugee youth in Rwanda. And so we're calling this program Future Ground. And the idea is really that we believe that everyone deserves to create and build and work towards their own future. And so we are embarking now on a co-creation process that is pretty robust, that we're taking, you know, several months right now to interview a whole variety of different people to be able to understand how we sort of shape and frame the offering and the programs of Future Ground and how we develop the curriculum for Future Ground. So, what that looks like is my colleagues in Rwanda are meeting with government officials to understand like what are the Industries that they are looking for young folks to get into. They're meeting with companies in Rwanda to understand what they are hiring for, what are the skill sets, what are the technical skills, what are the soft skills that people need in order to be employable in Rwanda? We're meeting with Silicon Valley tech folks to understand, you know, how they are training or what they see the opportunities are for training around AI or digital technology. We're meeting with potential funders to understand like what would be compelling about this for them. How could we, you know, how can we sort of involve them in the co-creation to get them to be then supporters of this effort further down the line? And then of course, we're spending lots of time with people that we know from the camp. So these are, you know, either people that would be looking to participate in this type of program, those that have participated in the coding school previously, we're connecting with other organizations that have run digital training programs or entrepreneurship programs or job readiness programs across East Africa to understand which models work best. So, I mean, overall, we'll probably, as a, you know, there's maybe eight or 10 of us from a light that are now part of this co-creation process. And, you know, we'll probably interview a couple hundred people from sort of all of these different areas and in all of these different parts of the world to help inform the design of what future grounds will look like.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

That is amazing. I love everything that goes into it. And I think it's incredible because you must have the community and the people that you're serving like respond so positively to this. What do they say when you actually engage them and you show them the process that you're undertaking to deliver to them this holistic 360 degree kind of program where you've thought about like every angle and included everyone in the conversation?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

I think they feel really proud of it. Um and I think they really feel ownership of it. I was part of a co-creation workshop with a group of young Rwandan women who had started a soap making business. And they were, you know, making soap at a pretty small scale, mainly for their sort of neighbors and community in the refugee camp. And we uh, you know, decided to sort of invest in their business. They had come forward and said that they wanted to expand it and be able to sell their soap outside of the Mahama refugee camp. And so to do that, we said, all right, well, we're gonna run a couple of co-creation workshops with you to really get your product right and get your branding and packaging right. And so we did that, and they uh, you know, they really made the decisions along the way based on their conversations with customers, based on prototyping different directions, and landed on a soap brand called Nova that they now sell both inside and outside of Mahama. And they're making, you know, they're doing pretty well in terms of making a living and be able to support their families. These are mainly single mothers that otherwise really didn't have very good prospects for employment. And so they what they love is being able to run this business together as well. They were able to secure loan capital from a light to be able to expand it and they're paying that back over time. And so they just feel really proud, again, that they're not sort of relying off of handoffs. They they actually they want to be working, they want to be providing for them, their families themselves. They don't want to just be getting handouts or aid. And so this has been a great way for them to do that. And so I think it's been, you know, through this co-creation process has made them really feel ownership over the business. And they're the ones that, you know, have made the decisions about it so that they feel real pride in it.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah. I think, you know, this is to me quite apparent, your approach in in in your branding and the words that you choose to describe the work that you're doing. When I look at your website, the language you use is human-worthy services, dignified spaces, unleashing abundance. And I think it really goes back to that point that you said that they feel ownership over what they're doing. They feel included. They don't feel like it's just, they're just a beneficiary. You know, there's a dignity, a component of dignity that's embedded in the work and the way you present the work and partner with communities. So I think that's so cool. I think that's amazing. I want to talk a little bit now about what what gives you hope in this moment. Because I mean, it's it's a tough time. We talked about it in the beginning, right? And it's a tough time and funding is always going to be a concern, especially when crises just kind of hit from out of nowhere. Just wondering if you could talk a bit about what gives you hope in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah. I think what gives me hope is that I think that there, that, you know, for for decades we have said that we need to change, you know, the field of development or humanitarian aid, that it needs to be uh, like I said at the beginning, less top down, that we need to really invest more in local organizations and local leaders. And I I do think that that is is starting to happen more. I think it's had to because of the need for more cost effectiveness. And it maybe happen did not happen in the way that any of us would have wished for it to happen in terms of such drastic and sudden cuts with so much sort of surrounding confusion and all the rest. But at the same time, I do think we are moving towards a place where more money, I hope, is getting into the hands of local leaders and local organizations. And I think that there is, we are in a moment of disruption. And I think those moments of disruption really require us to be innovative. And so, you know, I think for us that looks like things like investing in these social enterprise models or really trying to focus on like, how do we solve the problem of displacement? How do we move people out of camps so that they don't have to be dependent on those resources so that they are providing for their own families and and for themselves? And so, you know, I I hope that we will see more movement in that direction, which is how do we transition people? You know, how do we go back to a place where refugee camps can be a temporary place, a refuge where people can sort of take a brief rest before they move on to the next place where they're able to rebuild their homes and lives and get jobs or start businesses and really integrate into those communities. So I think I'm I'm hopeful that the disruption in the end will will ultimately uh sort of end in a in a more positive system around humanitarian aid or global development.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah, thanks for that. And I think I think what you said around, you know, uh creating opportunities for people to, you know, these social enterprises that you're creating, you know, because when when most people I think think about humanitarian affairs and um response to crises, it's it's sort of immediate and reactive, you know, and you're sort of taking a proactive approach as well and helping these people get back on their feet in a way that kind of speaks to what they want to work on and and how they how they see their livelihoods unfolding and want to unfold. So it's sort of like both you're being proactive and you're being reactive. And I think that that's that's great for the humanitarian aid sector because there need to be sustainable solutions for people to help them get on their feet and live their lives and be able to support themselves and not be dependent. And like you said, a lot of these people don't want to be dependent beyond the moment of when they do need that immediate help, right? So I think that's I think that's great what you're doing. So we're we're coming close to the end of the conversation. And I want to ask you for listeners who are really inspired by the work that a light is leading around the world, if they choose to donate to the do good on purpose giving circle, what would their donations?

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, a light raises philanthropic dollars from many, you know, thousands and thousands of generous people. And that really, that work really goes to support the the whole range of what we're talking about from the sort of emergency response through these social enterprise programs where we're helping people sort of move beyond a life of displacement. And so that support, a light serves about four million people a year. Uh and that support goes to help us do that and and continue to support those that really need it the most. So we're able to really secure uh donor funding from UN agencies and other government funding sources. But what the private donations really allow us to do is the more innovative work. They allow us to test out new models, to explore new ideas, to do the co-creation processes. Like the social enterprises you're talking about, right? Exactly. That's right. That's right. So all of those, um, the social enterprises, all the sort of innovation work that Alight does is primarily catalyzed by private philanthropy. And then what we're able to do is demonstrate that those models work and then get the scale-up funding to be able to sustain them over time and be able to expand them to the, you know, four million people or more that we serve every year through that institutional donor funding. So the private funding is really what allows us to work on that side of not just sort of survival, but thriving for people, to work on really solving the problem of displacement, to work on building those innovative social enterprises to get them to really be effective models for for government or other institutional donors to scale.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Thank you so much. Jocelyn, this has been such a phenomenal conversation. I think the work that you're doing is so important, especially around the human-centered design element and bringing that into the humanitarian aid sector and really kind of helping to chart a new path for the humanitarian aid sector and thinking through how to partner with beneficiaries and make them true partners in the process and have a say in their destiny. Thank you so much for everything that you're doing. Thanks for leading the light. Thanks for being here with me. And I look forward to seeing where you take a light in the next few years. Thank you so much. Thank you. Before you go, I want to tell you about Anne Woodman jewelry, whose pieces I'm wearing in this episode. Anne Han makes these beautiful pieces out of 14 karat gold filled wire. They're light and lovely and really easy to wear. Anne believes strongly in giving back, and she's donating 10% of sales generated from this podcast to the show's giving circle. So if you want jewelry that feels good and does good, check out a link to Ann Woodman's jewelry in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode on the Do Good on Purpose podcast. And if today's conversation inspired you, please consider supporting the work through the Do Good on Purpose Giving Circle, which is linked in the show notes. And if you really enjoyed this episode, please subscribe. Share it with someone who believes in building a better world because change rarely happens by accident. It happens when people decide to do good on purpose.